Why not just get rid of clone cost? It doesn't really add to the game it just hinders people from doing anything risky if they don't have their clone updated.

But it doesn't really add anything to the game, it's really just a nuisance. Couldn't the Minmatar Republic pay for my clones for my race with the taxes NPC corpse get?

To take this conversation in somewhere I personally haven't seen it go before, what about giving sov 0.0 the ability to have a discount to clone costs similar to in lowsec FW? Podding is much more likely in null anyways thanks to bubbles, and an infrastructure upgrade to reduce clone costs really makes sense in the player-run, empire-building nature of 0.0

Ok for the sake of the argument for the bitter vet, why not have discount clones at the bitter vet starbase? He spend a lot of time building up a character so he should be rewarded for his dedication to the game.

Was this a serious question?

For one thing, you'd CTRL-A your hangar and contract everything to an alt before the op and cancel the contract after the op was over. There's just too many ways to get around that.

And that's aside from the fact that more than a few ships get destroyed every day and I wouldn't even want to think about what the database would have to do to calculate all that.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of using variable insurance rates to level the playing field. It's easy to calculate, the amount of isk sink is easy to adjust and it seems to address the issue of podding costs a little better than the current system.

Should it be coupled to skill points? dunno.... the current system is, so that's the direction I was thinking in.

So I managed to force myself to read more of the posts in this thread.

I am shocked.

What the **** do you guys want? Risk free pvp with losses without a meaning?

What brought me to this game was the fact that every single loss was permanent and a major setback. In the beginning (2003) even losing a cruiser was something that could make a grown man cry. Today people throw t3 ship after t3 ship in a fight and don't care a thing about the losses as ISK is plenty and easy to get. Pods are actually one of few losses people tend to care about especially if they have forgotten to upgrade their clone and lose skillpoints.

If you reduce the impact of a loss even more the meaning of pvp will decrease even more.

All the talk of "making people pvp more if the losses costs less" is just a step in the completely wrong direction. What the **** do you want? Evey single ship in game in your hangar spawn when you log in? Just log onto the test server instead.

Don't ****** ruin my game.

I usually don't like the comparison to Hello Kitty Online, but seriously what do you want from this game? A themepark MMO where all is nice and sweet? You are entitled your own opinion, of course, but do not try to force that on everyone else.

This game was branded as a harsh environment where losses ment something. Don't change that.

seriously i would LOVE to have free clones, removed learning implants and all this stuff.
I WOULD LOVE IT.

but you should see some perspective outside of your personal interests. This makes me stand against such "big deals for other players"

personally i seen a lot more (note: there is LOTS of threads about this).
- free clones
- cheap clones (cheaper than now)
- 1 mil for clone
- complete removing of clones
- player made clones (everybody know what would it be don't we?)
- many clones in one station + insta-free JC inside 1 station
- etc....

so nope. Not "noone". Add here learning implants (which is too be removed as people want) and you have an idea....

I can't help but to think about the op we had last night. We were on a gate waiting for a minute while I did something and some guys started jumping through the gate in pods and shuttles.

of course we blapped them all and one of the guys calls out on comms, "BRING ME SOME BACON.... MAMMA JUST COOKED SOME EGGS!"

What some of you are still not quite getting is that (at least how I see it) part of the reason for higher pod costs for vets was to level the playing field a bit so that younger players weren't perpetually disadvantaged by the mere fact that they were younger.

So ... suppose pod costs are zero for everyone. How you get that leveling effect back in?

I suggested moving it to insurance and got the comment that it wasn't fair because vets lose more ships and they shouldn't be made to pay more or take higher risks and blah blah.....

But it's not the vets who need to "catch up"

You want to find a way to "go easy" on new players at least isk wise while they learn how the game works, don't you? Maybe going hard on vets isn't the right way to go easy on newbies but there must be some way to get to a nice balance..

Have you ever had the shakes before a batlle?

Ever thought of why?

So. What do you enjoy in this game then?

I took the time and searched your character on Battleclinic. To me it doesn't look like you're that interested in pvp, at least not in space. Market pvp perhaps?

In my opinion insurance should be removed, clones even more expensive and isk much more difficult to get. It's been ages (years actually) since I got a hate mail for podding someone or killing a ship. Losses just don't matter anymore and in my humble opinion that takes the edge out of the game. Don't get me wrong, I hate losing ships and pods aswell and it does hurt my wallet aswell. That's what makes this game special.

I don't know how you can have such strong feelings about clone costs. There's a balance... I mean yah it's inconvenient for those w/ a fair amount of SP, but it's not a deal breaker at this point in the game. The flip side is that clone costs are a big ISK sink (I think it's big... or it should be...). Do you really want to remove or nerf a sink? We need more ISK sinks not fewer.

The alternative is to make clones a player-driven service, like pretty much every other service in the game, aside from skill books and insurance, plus some other very minor ones.

The majority of players with well designed and implemented character concepts think that clone costs should be higher. Cheap clones are an advantage to those who want a win and not a challenge. There's actually some other games on the market that specialize in that feeling.

Eve is an experiment in how "real" a virtual world can be made to feel. You wont get that with circus rides and kiddy shows.

Its a poor choice to skill a frig pilot up to 150 million SP's. It was a mistake and anyone who did so is going to pay for it.

This is a fallacy, and can only be true by incidence. There are only a few methods of making money in the game that increase in efficiency proportionally to skill points, such as mining, and high-end anomalies.

The rest of the methods usually cap out within a few million skill points. Take null ratting for example. With a combat build, you can reliably kill those rats at maybe 5-10 million skill points. That level 5 T2 gun specialty might allow the really old character to do it slightly faster, but if your newer character is focused, the difference is so small that it's insignificant.

And then you have methods like trading, scamming, ninja-salvaging, etc etc, where the only difference in moneymaking rates comes from player competency, and not skill point counts.

"Enjoyable grind" is an oxymoron.

First, I am told skills cap out for PvP and I believe it.

Second, I am/planning on putting as many combat skills in my PvP toons as I can, but I don't plan on putting non-combat skills in those toons. (I have seen clone costs.)

Let me ask you a question. Suppose CCP decides that clone cost are 'odd', and decide to change them and make clones cost 1M ISK for the first 400M skill points (no one is there yet) and 10B ISK for anything above that. Then in the future player A comes to this forum and complains that his 800M skill point character can't fly T1s.

Last month a new player came to these forums complaining that he took a Procurer into lowsec and got killed by a gate camp. He knew the game mechanic: lowsec is dangerous use and lat, etc. Is complaints were the same: I shouldn't have to.... it isn't fair.. they need to change the game... etc.

Both know the game mechanic yet choose to make choices that are bad for them... by their own admission.

Do you support changing the game to protect players from themselves?

Also a lot of posts

Characters without implants very low skills some not even training any more after the required skills for trading, dealing and strongly impacting in the game economy, which is NOT an intended mechanic.
These characters for most and because of this activity don't need implants, don't undock with expensive ships or ships at all, don't get podded and the only downside of their activity is to pay the same level of taxes than any one else that plays the game as intended.

Many people in support of lowering clone costs claim to have no trouble paying for them. There's also more alts posting on the "remove clone cost BW" And the main issue often comes down to a sense of "justice" about clone costs; why are high SP characters being "punished" is a phrase that comes up a lot.

-The cost on high level clones is one of the few balancing factors for new players v older players..

"Punishment" isn't my word; I took that directly from several posts in these threads. It is a feeling that is held by many people who oppose the clone cost mechanic.

To me rules and limits in a game are the individual puzzle pieces that define the play area. Disincentives for certain actions and consequences for others balanced by rewards create a dynamic that makes gaming interesting.

The game is a continual process of pushing oneself past disincentives like resource depletion in order to set up the potential for victory. The threat of failure and potential loss competing with ones attention and focus as the brass ring is just coming into view is a core component of the game. Going through this process creates the feelings of dread and exultation that are so pronounced in Eve.

So disincentives are a part of the game and must not be removed. They can be balanced by greater reward if they are too strong, but to remove them would erode what is actually a very delicate and hard to attain formula for in game dynamics.

And thus entereth the "all vets are impossibly wealthy," fallacy again.

Disincentives are interesting because they remind players of the risk. They set the stage for loss or victory. Like a wager at a poker table it lets you know that "the game has started, there will be a winner and a loser here." This transitional phase of forcing oneself to do something that is counter to our natures excites the fight or flight reflex which is what makes Eve exciting.

And the Idea of removing all disincentives to PvP just for the sake of PvP has no brakes, no stopping point. Once accepted then ships and mods should be free as working for them is a significant disincentive.

Clone costs discourage PvP for a very small but vocal part of the player base; only those players who have skilled up to very high SP levels, that still want to PvP, and have trouble earning ISK. And even some of those players like the risk / reward system as it stands. Its tough for those people, but the mechanic would be very difficult to scale based on ISK generation, so they are stuck with a one size fits all value.

Also of note; these people have the option to move to empire space where there are no bubbles. There are plenty of fights there. Its not like this precludes all PvP because it can't be overcome, options already exist in game to mitigate clone loss.

And I really don't see why you keep going back to that area of space preclusion argument when it has been shot down by pretty much every poster in this thread.

So just to sum the principle up again: Disincentive for pvp, bad isk sink, bad game machanic.

And that legitimizes the mechanic is anything but bad?

So we know it benefits nobody. You've implied that it is a net neutral to the supposed majority of players it affects. You have also admitted that it negatively affects some players.

By your own description this is a bad mechanic and you're doing a great job of proving that point.

it's why ccp originally gave you 3 char slots...................better yet don't get podded.

there was nothing wrong with the design. it was built and planned that way from the start.

umm they were after money. real money that as far as i can see they put back in.

it's really nice to see that smart people are still present in this forums

Thats not true at all Tipia. Eve has no class restrictions but that doesn't mean that one character should learn all the skills and do everything. Part of the fun of the game is building characters into existing niches.

Pirates build themselves out of the highsec dweller niche, faction warfare pilots build themselves out of options to mission for opposing factions, and these high SP chars have built themselves out of the frig pilot niche.

The game is working as intended with forced specialization for some activities.

Six six six.

I am still waiting for your answer.

Still eager to hear your answer.

You're still avoiding the question. Why do you pvp if losses doesn't mean anything?

Just to make one thing clear. I started out as part of the hard core RP community. I was part of the war between Ushra'Khan and CVA years before those alliances even existed, so yes, I have thought of RP.

That's what I am aiming at. I want pvp to have a meaning. I don't give a crap about killstats and I can say with certainty that I way better killstats than you. I enjoy fun pvp but I want the end result of a fight to have a meaning. That's what I am aiming at and what you fail to grasp. You're either not understanding that or just ignoring it. I enjoy that if you lose a ship you need to grind missions, mine asteroids, do incursions, scamming, station trading or whatever to get isk to buy a new ship. That's RP. that's losses having a meaning.

So I ask again: Why do you pvp if that and killstats are of no concern to you?

You don't need skills to go out in Eve and RP and have fun in mindless PvP. If you want to fight cheap and not be concerned about ISK then join FW. It is specifically designed for players like you.

If you don't want to play the bigger game then don't play it.

CLONE COSTS ARE TOO DAMNED HIGH!

They could just admit failure and start over. Failure is still an option in Eve isn't it?

No.